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Hello and welcome. You are here for the next episode of Courageous Leaders, Connected Teams. I'm your host, Stephanie Freeth. I'm a leadership and teams coach, and I am so excited to have my good friend and also a client with me, Brian Smith. Brian is
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a serial entrepreneur, and he's a purpose driven entrepreneur. So welcome, Brian. So good to see you.
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Thank you for coming in to have this conversation today. We're going to talk about a wide range of subjects, including why I'm starting this podcast. And we're going to talk about your journey as a leader, including some content around your conscious leadership journey, the Enneagram, and also just your path as a leader. One of the reasons I'm doing this podcast is to highlight stories of real leaders.
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And so, Brian and I know each other from way back. He picked my resume out of a digital pile to come work at an internet startup in the DC area back in 1998. Right? Yeah. Oh, a long time ago at this point. Yeah, a long time ago. So we've stayed in touch. We're good friends. And, I just thought Brian would be a perfect guest because his leadership journey has been really fascinating.
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And, I wanted to highlight his story and have a conversation. And Stephanie's been there for the ups and downs along the way. Yeah. Yeah. Well, both. It goes both ways. You and me both. The point. So, Brian, do you want to
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tell our listeners about you as just your background, some things that you've done, what you're interested in.
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Just let us know. Just a couple pieces of your path, and we'll dig into that even more. Sure. So first, thanks for having me. Really excited for your podcast. Really excited to be here with you. I know this will be a lot of fun for a lot of people. So happy to be one of the first to work with you on this.
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My background might seem a little bit haphazard, but I think there are a couple connecting points throughout. One is,
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being an entrepreneur. I've joined startups. I started a company myself. I think of myself as an entrepreneur. I'm going to start something very soon here in New York City. Much different than what I've done before.
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But, you know, creating new things is something that I've done year after year for many years now. Another thing is being a marketer. So I started my career in internet marketing and really haven't looked back. I love marketing. I've held almost every role within a marketing organization and continue to be passionate about that type of work.
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And then I think the other thing which I've seen throughout the years with me is that I love working with teams, and I know also that I'm not always best at it. And I always have new learnings to figure out. So I think that's a lot of why I appreciate Stephanie's work. Working on teams.
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Working on any team can be difficult, can be challenging, and I think there are lessons I've learned with Stephanie throughout the years, which have really helped me become a better leader. So that's why I'm excited to be here and talk to everyone about this subject. Awesome. Thank you so much. So let's do a little background. And when you and I were preparing for this, I was describing a little bit about my ideas behind the podcast, but you had some questions for me, about, what does it mean?
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So go ahead and ask me your questions about why are you doing this? And then and I'll respond to your specific questions. Well, I'd say first, as a marketer, like, hey, it's great that you're putting this out there. Putting great content out there is exactly what people need, and it can attract people to your way of thinking, to your organization.
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It can bring on your clients. But, you know, a podcast is different for you. It's something new. So, curious why you're taking the plunge into this area. Okay, great. So I would say, you know, I've been in business as a consultant since 2014, and I've been helping teams that whole time. I've done strategic planning. I've done one-on-one work with teams.
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And I also, you know, there's something about coaching that's inherently private, especially when you're working one-on-one or within small groups, that's not being broadcast to the world. And I would also say there has been a time where I
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was afraid to put myself out there. I was afraid to be the brand face was afraid to, you know, I thought I'd be attacked along the way.
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I had a lot of that fear of putting myself out there. So I've done my own internal work around that, and it just feels like now's the right time. I want to use this podcast to kind of lift back the veil around coaching. It's like, how does leadership development happen? It happens at these key moments where people come to me as a coach with an issue, and we work through that, and we do that in a lot of different ways, and then they end up applying that learning over the course of a lifetime.
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And so really, the reasons are I want to lift the veil on what coaching is about and so people can see what's the benefit of this? And the second reason I'm doing this is I want to highlight stories of real leaders. I want to shine the spotlight on, what does it take to embody leadership, to become a leader, not just to have these tasks, but the process of becoming a leader, using that every day across a variety of industries.
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So I tend to coach people who are in big companies, also business owners and entrepreneurs. So you, Brian, are an example of an entrepreneur. How have you applied this so that. That's really where this came from. But also, it's kind of exciting. Each person that you coach is slightly different. Each situation is slightly different. So you get to bring in lots of your learnings throughout the year, throughout the years of studying, conscious leadership, Enneagram, other methodologies.
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So it's kind of cool that they'll be bringing to light, how different leaders approach things differently and how a coach like you can step in and help them in different ways. Absolutely. And I do try to meet people where they are. I meet them exactly where they are. And really then curate, customize a program to support them and where they are.
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And I draw, as you started to say, I draw from a wide variety of modalities. You've gotten to experience some of those, and you've even said, like, whoa, why are you bringing this one in? Like you've seen the full expanse of really what I have brought. Yeah. And sometimes you've been like, wait, what? Why?
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Yeah. I think that's probably a good transition in the next section, which is looking at, why the really lies behind this? Because that gets into the nitty gritty of what you offer.
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Okay. So we've heard a little bit about already about why we're starting this podcast. But I want to go back to what you're calling the podcast Courageous Leaders, Connected Teams.
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What does that mean exactly? Because for me it might mean something different than the next person. So I think that's really important to get out in front of right now okay. Great question. So
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I went through probably about eight different iterations of the name of this podcast. I tried just eight as it was at least eight, probably more, but eight in the last couple months.
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And
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it really breaks down to I do a lot of work one-on-one with leaders, and I was thinking about using the word authentic because each leader, like what's authentic to them, is very personalized, but it's still this level of what I call whole body leadership, authentic and authenticity. But I like the word courageous because leadership requires courageous decisions.
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It requires this level of uncomfortablity. It requires a level of discomfort. It's probably a better word. And there are situations where leaders have to find that inner fire of times that they've needed to be courageous. Sometimes it's every day, sometimes it's like a big example. And I think we're living through that right now. You know, there's a lot of kind of stuff going on in the world, a lot of external stimulation and kind of chaos going on.
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And so the we're courageous felt very timely. And I want to ask every guest like, what's your definition of what courageous leadership means? Because I think we'll hear a lot of, inspiring stories around that. And because we really need to step into courage. It isn't something that is automatic. It's something we choose. It's even if we're facing something that we're afraid about or we're not quite sure how to handle stepping into the unknown, which is where we create from, is really courageous.
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So that's the first thing about that. Okay. And then connected teams. Yeah. So connected teams. So a lot of times leaders come to me when their teams are in drama and unproductive drama. And the number one thing that I recommend is let's do an Enneagram assessment with your team. So the Enneagram is a really ancient tool. It's a personality assessment, but yet it goes deeper.
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It's like a 3D MRI.
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it's really my favorite tool to use. And once you use the Enneagram, you can see nine different,
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archetypes, all human patterns of how humans show up in the world. And when you map that on to a team, you can see like, oh, these two people aren't getting along because they're actually connected on this line.
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So when I use the word connected, what I mean by that is drama has gone down. And it also means that they're more productive. They're more aligned. There's less conflict. If there is conflict, they know how to work through it. So I mean connected as an umbrella term for all the things we want from teams, like productivity, but also creativity, enjoying working together.
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Because those teams get stuff done in the world and they make an impact. So that's what I mean by connected teams. And I think it's really helpful to hear that because my version of connected teams might not actually mean what you think or I'm like, no, I want someone at some team that's efficient, that's working well together.
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It doesn't necessarily mean they have a strong connection, but it should or it could. So it's really good to hear that how that or how you're defining that. And I think it's pretty, widely encompassing. So it'll fit lots of people's needs, because every team has some drama. So, you can meet them where they need to be or where they are right now.
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Yeah. And I like how you describe it, because every team is different. You're going to have a seven connected to a two, one connected to a four, and therefore there are lots of potential pieces of drama within a team, which means you need everyone, like their whole body in on this to help address the issues. And I think that's where you have one of your superpowers that you've you saying you're starting with that in your game, and that's like the basis or maybe the foundation, but you can pull from 7 or 10 or it feels to me like unlimited methodologies to help meet that person where they are, because a very creative
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person might think differently and might need something different than a very analytical person, or a one might need something different than the seven. So I like that, you know, you're meeting people where they are and you have lots of different ways to help a team become, to be better, to have less drama, to be more connected.
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Yeah. Thank you. I think part of it is when you can view things through the Enneagram lens, you can very quickly diagnose the motivation for why something's happening. And sometimes it's conscious and sometimes it's unconscious. And so,
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it really makes a difference. And, I'll just have us kind of move into that next topic. I said that word conscious.
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One of the modalities that I use in addition to the Enneagram is called conscious leadership. This is based on a book by Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman and Kaley Kemp.
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You have gotten to experience the 15 commitments of conscious leadership. And,
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one of the things that I love to bring to teams that you're well aware of is this idea of, there's a line and below the line we're in a state of threat and above the line we're in a state of trust,
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learning, growth, wonder. And we as humans are hardwired to go below the line. And yet when we aren't consciously aware of, oh, I'm just below the line, I'm in a state of threat, then it's almost like having blinders on. We can only see the world through the triggers of our Enneagram type to tie the two together.
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But really, we can't see options for how to act any differently. So, I'm not going to go into all the details around conscious leadership. We will have other episodes on that, but I'm curious to hear how you have applied conscious leadership, even just above and below the line to your leadership journey. You were in a group coaching cohort with me a few years back was that pandemic time?
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It's been I think it's like 2020. Yeah. So how are you still applying it? Because that's the thing, sometimes we learn a leadership theory early on, and the ones that are really good kind of become part of how we view the world. So I'm curious how you've continued to apply any of the things you learned about conscious leadership.
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Sure. And I think we should bring up some examples. The 15 commitments, not all of them too many for right now. And that's not the purpose of this, but I overall, I think what conscious leadership has done has enabled me to just stop for a second and just consider where I am. I don't always think of it as above the line or below the line, but I do think of it as like, where am I?
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Why am I doing something? How does it make me feel? And you know, if I say all that together, yeah, I'm figuring out if I'm above or below a line, but it's more like just in the moment. Does this feel good or bad? Like, maybe that's not what I'm supposed to think with the conscious leadership, but it's like, yeah, this is good for me and serving me and my team or something's wrong here.
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So I think overall, even for the last five years, overall, it's just stopping for a second and I'll hear myself say something and be like, that might have been disrespectful to that person. That might have not felt good to me. Or maybe it's the opposite. It's like, wow, I did take responsibility, and I stopped gossiping and I did this, and it's like it makes me feel really, really good.
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So
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I think the best part of conscious leadership thus far has been I can catch myself in a moment and really understand is the serving me and my team or not, and therefore make a change. That's huge. That really is. It's the pause. It's that space between stimulus and response. And that takes practice. It takes in the moment stopping and the whole the line is just a tool.
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I like to say, okay, can I pause right now and notice, am I in a state of threat? And the way you describe it, I notice what I'm feeling. You're paying attention to your emotions, to your body sensations, pausing because otherwise we're just kind of in it. Yeah, going, yeah, I think that. So I guess we can get back to where an example from right now.
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But the easiest example that I had, when I was working with lots of teams was gossip. And what you just said, you don't know, you normally don't start. It's just you keep asking, what did that person say? Why did they say that? Oh, I heard this. And you get caught up in it. It's, it's something that we have just either been trained to do or not been told that it's not productive.
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So gossip below the line, it's just keeping on going and listening to it. And I remember clearly seeing this as one of the commitments and being like, oh yeah, I always follow the leader and I never see people above the line. And I'm like, wait, this is an easy one. Don't get caught up in that craziness. It's just say, no, I don't need to be part of this.
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This doesn't serve me. It doesn't help my team. It's actually hurting the organization. If you if you delve into it deeper, it's like, let's stop for a second. And if there's gossip, it's probably for a reason. Let's understand that reason and address that probably, disruptive thing happening in organization. And then if you address it, you don't need gossip anymore.
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You sort of fixed it and moved on. Yeah, that's a huge example. So
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gossip is commitment five. And
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it really is about lowering drama because part of conscious leadership is about energy management. So when we're gossiping and we're below the line and we're in what's called the drama triangle, we're going back and forth between villain, victim, and hero.
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We're using up this energy, unproductively. And yet there's also something to learn there. But one of the key things for stopping gossip is just to say, I'm only going to go direct if I have an issue with the person, I'm not going to vent steam to my colleague. I'm going direct. And it's another way to catch yourself to say, If I'm about to say this to my friend, would I say the same thing directly to the person I have the issue with?
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And if you wouldn't go direct then hey, it's gossip. And just that one behavioral noticing change is enough to start to shift what we do first, and then how that shows up in the culture. Yeah, absolutely. And I remember just there's a levity once it was like, okay, I'm not going to get involved in this. What's called a drama triangle.
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You can go into that if you want to. But that feeling of just getting caught up in that, it's like, oh great. It's like off my chest, it's off my shoulders. It just feels better. Yeah, yeah. I think another one which, you know, I started to use back then, but maybe I didn't. It's not that I didn't believe in it, but I didn't see the real purpose of it.
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Maybe it was talking about the opposite of my story. You'll know what number it is. What number is it? Let's go there. Commitment? Okay. Whatever number, it doesn't matter. It's more like there are these lessons that you get with conscious leadership. So this one opposite of my story, how I like to think about it is, again, if someone, if I'm talking to someone, let's just stop for a second and say, you know, does it matter if I'm right?
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It doesn't matter if this person's right or is it more like, hey, I can think something and someone else can think something. We can both be right about it. I don't think that's the exact definition of this one, but it's that ability to stop for a second. Like Stephanie said, it's like there's that line for me. It's just stopping, considering.
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And it's like, I don't have to defend my position over and over and over. I can listen to someone really well and recognize that that person in their mind, and maybe in reality, is just as true or as justice right as I am. Yeah, that's like a mind-bending soap opera situation there. That's not what we're used to doing.
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It's like I make my argument. You make your argument. You're wrong. I'm right. It's like that doesn't serve anyone. If you can listen a little bit more and try to put yourself in other person's shoes for a second and see how they see it, it's like we can both be right and maybe together we can come to a better solution.
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Yeah. This is another great example.
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This one is, it's a practice. It's based on the work of Byron Katie's four questions. And what it does is it starts to give you a practice around,could I be willing to see that the opposite of my story could be just as true as the story that I'm telling myself? And it really can be this meditative practice where you go through each of the questions.
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Then you do what are called turnarounds where you might have an assumption about someone and then you flip it and you see, could the opposite be just as true?
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And even that practice alone starts to soften. It starts to expand possibilities. Because if we're right about something, I'm holding this pen tightly and it's like, I'm right about this. But when we start to like question, oh, I could, yeah, I could see that. But, I could see how that could be true. I may still have a preference that how I view it is still my preference, but I'm holding it loosely.
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I'm holding it lightly. And when you have that capacity as a leader to question that, you're right. You open up the field of possibility. And to me that's linked to innovation, it's linked to creativity, it's linked to new products. It's linked to doing things better. So that one practice I agree we could have a whole episode on that one.
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But it's pretty powerful. But what I want to actually just mention, like the reason I said it a little bit differently than or think of it differently as us. What we covered before is I think I use this a lot in my personal life now. So a lot of what you've taught me extends to that personal life.
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It's like if you're having an argument with a loved one, it's very easy. So again, to just get caught up in your story versus consider the other person. So for sure, the opposite of my story can help in business, but I actually think it served me even more in my personal life. And I'm so glad to hear you say that, because these are in many ways, these are business tools, but they're leadership and life tools.
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And so sometimes the doorway that people come in through is through work and leadership. And yet I'm really interested in developing the full leader. Leadership and life are not separate. And because we as leaders, we're embodied. We're working on who are you being, not just what you're doing. It's are you bringing your whole self with you wherever you go, whether you're having a dinner with your partner or a friend or whether you're in a boardroom.
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And because we can't just switch it off. We want to bring out that whole body, embodied being as a leader. So yes, it's going to spill over into life. Ideally, it spills over into life. Yeah. Yeah. No that's a good way of thinking about it. I just think a lot of what you've taught me, or what we've worked on together over the years, has served me in multiple, situations.
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And it feels good that it's not just like a business, business, business. It's like, no, this is life. These are life lessons that everyone can learn. So it's actually surprising. Like, we don't learn these things in high school or college.
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It all keeps building. Sometimes we're not ready for these lessons, but there are a lot of lessons I wish I had learned earlier.
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So that's one reason to share these stories early on so more people can hear them earlier. So let's transition a little bit to the Enneagram because this is your favorite. Okay. So, the Enneagram has been really powerful for me. I actually learned of it through Conscious Leadership Group when I was studying with them. I'm in an Enneagram three, which is the competitive achiever.
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So my underlying motivation is I've if I'm not doing, if I'm not working, then I'm not worthwhile.
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I've been working with it since 2018 pretty intensely. And it's been a game changer for me.
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So you typed as a type one, which is the strict perfectionist.
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The strict perfectionist often has a very strong sense of good or bad, right.
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Wrong. And ones can see the ideal of where a team or an organization could go and, or a society even. And it could be like, here's the exact process for getting there. And they're very good at taking the steps needed to get there. Sometimes ones don't like to hear themselves called strict perfectionists. They can kind of vary.
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You call it effort. And so I'd love to hear how has knowing your Enneagram type impacted how you show up again in leadership and in life?
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Sure, for me, I feel like a lot of the pieces are already there, but actually, like, reading a full report that once it's like, oh yeah, that's, yep, that's me.
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So I think more than anything else, it gives me a better understanding of why I do things a certain way or why I feel a certain way. It's not changing me. It's not like, oh, I'm suddenly in this like this part, and I'm only this. It's just a little bit more like I can step back and be like, oh, that's why I talk that way.
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Or that's why I feel that way. And while I might have thought I understood it before, I have a better understanding now. And then additionally, it's not just about my understanding of myself and why I feel a certain way. It's very easy to then be like, oh, Stephanie is not a one. Therefore she doesn't think this way. She might actually think I'm a little a bit crazy for thinking this way.
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So it's giving you a better understanding of who these other people in my life, whether it's in a business situation, whether it's a personal situation doesn't matter, and why they do things a certain way and why they feel a certain way. It's more than anything else. It's just a framework to explain life. It's like, hey, people do this this way.
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Oh, that can be a little bit of a four there. And that makes sense. And I like as someone who's curious and always learning, it's like, this just gives me a better perspective. And maybe even slows me down to appreciate, hey, everyone's different and they, they approach other people, other situations in different ways, and that's perfectly fine.
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So as you are saying, it's like, I definitely see things as right or right and wrong. So actually I'll say that again, I definitely see things as right and wrong. But what I've learned through working with you, Stephanie, is there could be a gray area in the middle and before conscious leadership, before starting my undergrad, before lots of work with you.
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I really didn't appreciate that there was a gray, landscape and so like that. I think that shuts me off to a lot of people or a lot of situations or makes things more difficult. So I think more than anything else, it's understanding, hey, I'm me. And this kind of explains why I'm me, but someone else can be completely different and have different feelings, and they can be as true for them as my feelings are for me.
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And therefore they'll attack a situation or approach a person in a different way. I just like having that framework to understand, hey, everyone's different, let's respect their differences. Understanding, kind of what that means for them, how they'll do certain things. It just makes it a lot easier to go through life, I think, let alone just business.
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I've always been driven by the question of why do people do what they do? And so for me, finding the Enneagram is like, oh, here's a map showing people's deepest motivations. And in learning that, I actually think every time I work with the Enneagram, compassion is the main word that comes up.
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Why do we humans do what we do? And there's nine different archetypal patterns for how that shows up. And when I see it in action, I have way more compassion of like, oh, that person's just acting from their type structure. They're really below the line right now to bring in that conscious leadership term. They're in a threatened state.
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And then, it's like I can see what's the film that they're seeing the world through. And when I understand that, then I also know how to have a conversation with them. I know how to meet them. It gives you a whole new level of empathy. And once in a team, when you start applying it and people know their own Enneagram types and they have that shared language, they can have an honest conversation of like, hey, I'm seeing this.
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The seven who may have had the vision and wants to go ahead, but they've gotten 80% of the way done and they haven't finished the last 20%. But the one is like, we've got to finish that by the deadline. Come on, let's go. What's usually in dynamic tension becomes an opportunity. It's like an opening of how can we address this in a way that we understand how the type structure is impacting the work in the moment?
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Yeah, I think it's that opportunity to be like, okay, we can work together a little bit better here just because we understand that that number that Enneagram, and lots of companies do things differently. So it might not be a number. It might be a color. It might be like some other thing out there. There's so many different frameworks.
00:30:22:03 - 00:30:48:03
But just having that again, I go back to a pause and being like, oh, there's friction here. Why is there friction? They see the world this way. I see the world this way. It's not always, not cut and dry, but there are some pretty true statements in your Enneagram about yourself. And it's like, okay, well, if you understand that, that's a great first step to undertake to get to a better team or what you'd call a connected team.
00:30:48:05 - 00:31:18:18
Yeah, yeah. Great. Let's apply this to you as an entrepreneur, because Enneagram ones in entrepreneurship, I imagine from the type structure, would have a sense of, hey, something is broken or wrong in the world or in this market, and I have an idea and I'm going to go fix it. So that can be a huge strength and driver, because often Enneagram ones will see that potential for something that could be better.
00:31:18:20 - 00:31:42:28
So how do you think the way seeing the world as a one has influenced your entrepreneurial journey? Feel free to pick an example or two, but I'm just curious how that's impacted you as an entrepreneur. Sure, I'd agree that an entrepreneur or business leader, or just person in general at this. Sure, I get described seeing a lot of different points of my life.
00:31:43:00 - 00:32:04:20
I can say working on teams or managing and leading teams for sure. It's like I have this precise, like, this is perfection. Here's the goal. Here's why we have this goal. Everyone is on board. Let's go. And it's a very driven like, hey, we're going from point A to point B, let's, let's do it. And that's not how everyone works.
00:32:04:23 - 00:32:24:20
I think most companies, most teams, they have that goal setting or OKR. But people get there in different ways and understand in different ways. And I think it's been helpful for me to understand, okay, this is my way. It doesn't mean that Caroline over there, or Susie over there, or John over there, or Mark over there. While they've heard me,
00:32:24:20 - 00:32:48:02
it doesn't mean that's how that works exactly. And they might express themselves differently in that work. And it can be a little bit frustrating for me to see that because it's like, oh, it's A to B, and we've come up with this. But that's just not. However, on things. And if you look at them having a different Enneagram than you, you can start to meet them.
00:32:48:09 - 00:33:06:28
You can start to talk to them in their way and help them understand your way and come together closer as a team. Yeah, it's not always pretty, but in a very strict business sense, I want to go from A to point B in my mind, it's very clear we have these goals. It's not always that clear to everyone else.
00:33:06:29 - 00:33:15:19
Yeah, I've definitely seen that. Yeah, I heard you use the word frustration. So I want to dig in to that just a little bit while we're still in this part.
00:33:15:19 - 00:33:31:24
So Enneagram ones are in the body types eight, nine, and one. And one of the issues that that those types are dealing with is anger. But Enneagram ones do not like the word anger, but they often will resonate with frustration or resentment.
00:33:31:26 - 00:33:34:11
How does that show up for you?
00:33:34:11 - 00:33:37:19
Yeah, definitely not anger, that's for sure.
00:33:37:25 - 00:33:40:17
I think I've learned throughout the years that it's
00:33:40:17 - 00:33:57:27
we're going to things don't always go right. And for me that's really hard to manage later on. But maybe that's it. That's the key that I've figured out that, hey, we have this plan from point A to point B, you know, we're going to hit point Q along the way.
00:33:57:27 - 00:34:16:05
If you like what happened, I will be like this. But you know, what I have to realize is that's fine. And I think that working with you has helped me understand that it's fine. You're still getting there. It just might not be in the exact way that you think it should be.
00:34:16:05 - 00:34:35:11
Yeah. And so is anything else you want to say to feel complete for now about Enneagram and Type one? Or do you feel like we've covered everything for now? Well, I will say that there's like a lot of what's if you really read your Enneagram type, there are a lot of things which can be very true.
00:34:35:12 - 00:34:57:20
You know, I agree with everything. And then sometimes it's like, no, that's not me to go a way. But it can be very true. So for me, I'm starting up a new business, which will it's like it's going to be a bakery or a chocolate shop. I employ people with disabilities. Much different than the CMO tech marketing thing that I've done for 20 plus years or so.
00:34:57:23 - 00:35:17:27
But if you look at my Enneagram and if you read that and then understand what I'm doing, it's like, oh my God, he sees something out there in the world he doesn't see, right. People with disabilities. They're not employed at the rate of other people anywhere near at that rate. I can fix that. So as I'm going into this new venture, I realized before, wait.
00:35:17:27 - 00:35:46:07
This fits me really well. And it's you could say, a culmination of working with Stephanie and understanding about conscious leadership and about Enneagram, but it's also like pushing past that or just understanding myself better and getting to this place that makes me feel complete. Like, I don't know if we talked about that aspect of your work, but it goes past the Enneagram. It goes past conscious leadership.
00:35:46:11 - 00:36:06:00
If you're embodying all these things, you're thinking about your full life and your full potential. And I just think that's like a little spark that you don't necessarily get or that I haven't seen other places except in my work with you, where we're really getting into that whole body feel of what you are as a person.
00:36:06:00 - 00:36:07:07
Thank you for bringing that up.
00:36:07:07 - 00:36:32:27
I do believe in whole body leadership. I, you know, I think that the frameworks are great. I can geek out with the best of them on different frameworks and things like conscious leadership, things like the Enneagram are tools and they are frameworks. And that particular set of tools also lends itself to looking at embodied leadership, a whole person.
00:36:32:27 - 00:36:53:25
So the Enneagram is set up for the body types, the emotional center, and the head center. So we're not just a third of a person. In a lot of settings, we're taught to use our head. We're taught to use our intellect, what's called IQ. We're not taught to use our body intelligence or also called BQ or our emotional intelligence (EQ).
00:36:53:25 - 00:36:59:11
Now, EQ has gotten more airplay the last couple decades, which is great.
00:36:59:11 - 00:37:22:21
And body intelligence really is noticing those sensations. I think about it in decision making, if you're trying to make a decision and your head is saying, yes, I'm going to go for it, but your gut is like, no, this isn't right. When leaders skip over that part, they're not using all the centers of intelligence they have access to so that you gotta listen to that, right?
00:37:22:24 - 00:37:43:29
Yeah, yeah. So how have you used all of those centers of intelligence as you are developing this new venture? Because it really is a social enterprise that you're doing now. So that probably leads into the next question or section that we wanted to talk about, which I have to ask you about the title. It's Purpose-Driven Entrepreneur.
00:37:44:01 - 00:37:51:02
What is it? What are you talking about there, Stephanie? You see the world, whatever this is.
00:37:51:02 - 00:38:00:03
Yeah. So this morning I was thinking about how do I sum up Brian? And I really think. So, thhe phrase purpose-driven entrepreneur came
00:38:00:03 - 00:38:10:10
to me, you're not just about I'm going to make money and maximize shareholder value. You as in an Enneagram one want to change the world.
00:38:10:10 - 00:38:34:00
You have a drive for impact. You have a drive for this could be better. And I'm going to use all my skills, all my gifts, and I'm going to be creative and I'm going to try this thing, and I'm going to learn. And you're taking all your passions of chocolate making and business and marketing, and you're creating something that the world needs.
00:38:34:00 - 00:38:56:02
So, that's where I don't know if you feel like that fits for you, but I don't know. That's how I, that's one of the ways I see your impact on the world and, and your chapter right now of using that entrepreneurial drive, but really to have impact, to have purpose. How does that feel? Does that feel like it fits though?
00:38:56:02 - 00:38:58:04
It actually absolutely makes sense.
00:38:58:04 - 00:38:58:18
And
00:38:58:18 - 00:39:10:01
I can go back to being in business, working with teams, working at a company that wants to go public or is public, things like that, where it's like, that's all great,
00:39:10:01 - 00:39:17:03
but at my core, what I really love doing throughout my business career is helping people learn and grow.
00:39:17:05 - 00:39:29:25
My biggest success, I thought, was when someone left the team, which is always devastating. It's like what we're going to do, but someone left the team and went on to be successful somewhere else. Yeah,
00:39:29:25 - 00:39:38:12
and I could have been selfish. I could totally. And I'm sure I was many times selfish. And I handled the situation wrong because that's who we are as human beings.
00:39:38:14 - 00:40:06:14
But if I stop to think about it now, it's like that. That person went on to do great things. And I had a very small piece. I had a very small impact or some impact on that. And that's much different than like, oh, I helped grow revenue by 87%, or I did this by this much. It's like, no, I was always much more interested in like, let's help develop people, help people learn and grow.
00:40:06:14 - 00:40:21:29
Then what are we going to do? That's the bottom line. I had to have that there as part of being a business person at a for-profit venture, but it was always much more important to me, to be in your terms, be purpose-driven.
00:40:21:29 - 00:40:32:02
Yeah. I mean the business stuff is necessary but not sufficient. And, I think, you know, we get to these and you've done this throughout your career.
00:40:32:02 - 00:40:40:15
But I also see people, the longer they get in their careers, really wanting, craving something deeper,
00:40:40:15 - 00:40:47:20
craving that impact, whether it's on a team member that you're developing and then they go on for great things, seeing the impact in the world,
00:40:47:20 - 00:40:52:08
you know, we need revenue so that we have resources to be able to put back into the company.
00:40:52:08 - 00:41:17:08
But it's not, that's not it. Yeah, I think that's a great way to say it. You need that, and it's not one or the other. It's not this but this. It's and you definitely need like, hey, I was probably almost as competitive as anyone else to grow and to, you know, meet these goals or exceed these goals or like, you know, do this better than the competition, but that's only one piece of it.
00:41:17:10 - 00:41:28:00
It's not the whole story. Yeah. And I mean, you have been in the middle of Silicon Valley. You've been and now you're in New York. So you've been in both of those kind of,
00:41:28:00 - 00:41:30:26
you know, hyper-competitive environments.
00:41:30:26 - 00:41:37:01
What did you see in those environments? Did it feel like other people were leaning into their passion and their purpose as well?
00:41:37:01 - 00:42:00:26
Or do you think, given your Enneagram type, did that feel, did that stand out as different to you? Like, hey, I'm looking around and not everybody's thinking this way. I'm less likely the latter, I think. I think it's really especially in Silicon Valley, and I was a founder and CEO. I raised venture capital money. You don't talk about, let's say to your VC, your investors, your board.
00:42:00:26 - 00:42:07:08
It's like, this person left. They are at this other company and did really well. That's not what people do a lot of here.
00:42:07:08 - 00:42:19:08
I think I didn't see this in a lot of other people. Maybe it was there and people weren't talking about it. Maybe it's there more now. I, you know, I left Silicon Valley two years ago at this point.
00:42:19:08 - 00:42:42:28
So maybe it's become more of the ethos there. But I think also this type of training that we're talking about or coaching or giving people the framework to think about things isn't as prevalent as maybe it could be in Silicon Valley, or maybe it could be in you know, in Wall Street or ad agencies or in the publishing industry when I'm thinking about New York City.
00:42:43:03 - 00:43:00:19
So, you know, maybe it's there, maybe it isn't, but maybe we don't talk about it as much. And I think that's where a lot of your value comes in, that you can again meet people where they are, and that includes meeting people in whatever industry they're in. It could be high tech, it could be finance, it could be nonprofit.
00:43:00:19 - 00:43:20:10
It doesn't really matter. We're all working on teams trying to accomplish goals and work together better, have those connected teams can be great leaders. It doesn't matter what industry, it doesn't matter what size of company. So, you know, a long-winded way of answering your question. I don't think we talk about these things enough in companies.
00:43:20:13 - 00:43:40:07
And maybe if we learned about it a little bit more, we could have those candid conversations and we skip a lot of the BS, which, you know, you run into at every single organization all the time. Yeah. Well, thank you for just kind of painting that picture. And, you know, I like to say the inner game runs the outer game.
00:43:40:10 - 00:44:09:17
And so sometimes we have to have the connection to ourselves and that self-awareness first, and be applying these tools with ourselves before they can really kind of show up in a team, be more external, be part of the lexicon and the language of how teams are talking about that. So I think in what I've seen with my other network of conscious leadership coaches, because Conscious Leadership Group does a lot of work in the Bay area, and in Chicago.
00:44:09:20 - 00:44:36:19
And so I think you start, and kind of like the whole point of this podcast, like Lifting the Veil on what's happening in these coaching conversations that are one-on-one in private and not necessarily making it into the external world just yet. But that's why I think it's important to have these conversations more publicly, to say it can be a both/and thing we can care about business and the outcomes, and we can care about people and the impact.
00:44:36:19 - 00:45:09:10
And that could be in, you know, impact and sustainability, impact on people's lives, impact on what it feels like to go to work and to feel productive and not just be drained by the just the corporate grind every day. So I do think there's starting to be a shift, but it hasn't happened publicly, but it really requires a leader investing in that and showing people it's okay to talk about these things that are not typically talked about in a corporate setting.
00:45:09:13 - 00:45:29:10
Yeah, I think that's a very important point to get across. Yeah. You asked about some of the things I'm doing now. Yeah. So like, please, how I could use it back then, how I think about it now. So I am starting up a new business. It's going to be a bakery or chocolate shop which employs people with autism and down syndrome.
00:45:29:12 - 00:45:54:07
This is not a Silicon Valley tech company. It's much different. If you read Enneagram Type one, you can see right there. This is a clear connection to the Enneagram where I'm like, I see a problem or I would like a challenge or an opportunity. However, you look at it in the world where you have lots of people with disabilities, 80% of people with autism, for instance, are not employed.
00:45:54:10 - 00:46:14:17
And that's a very high unemployment rate. And it's not necessarily for a good reason. So as I try to digest what you said, a purpose-driven entrepreneur or entrepreneur, definitely. I'm starting things of purpose. Yeah, I guess so. Like I see a cause out there and I'm like, I can have an impact. They're very empathetic.
00:46:14:17 - 00:46:37:25
I have one. Yeah. And I think the difference may be throughout the years and to where I am now is, it's not just a thought in my mind. It's like I can see how to put it together. That comes from years of business experience, sure. But I think having the confidence to do it, and maybe the understanding of, of, you know, I'll fail and that I'll be okay and, I'll succeed.
00:46:37:25 - 00:47:01:10
Yeah, but like, you know, I'll grow along the way. I think that's a lot of what I've learned from you. Talking to you over the years as a coach, as an advisor. Also as a friend, for sure. But it's not, you know, this fits me. I know I feel good about this decision, and, yeah, it's partly because I've done this work.
00:47:01:10 - 00:47:26:16
I know that, yeah, I want a profitable business. I want to be successful, and I want to impact billions of people. And, Let's do. Okay. Yeah. And I don't need all of that this second. I don't need all of that done perfectly. I don't need to like, especially now with working with people with autism is the purpose.
00:47:26:16 - 00:47:52:03
And this isn't always very highly functioning. It's sometimes these people can't speak. They communicate in different ways. Well, I now have to meet them on their terms, in a way that works for them. And maybe five years ago, before I started this work, it would have been a lot more frustrating. Maybe it would have even led to anger, like, why can't we just get it early?
00:47:52:05 - 00:48:11:29
And now I can take a step back. I can pause like we talked about and be like, okay, they're not working like I do. And that's fine. Just because I see something the world one way they can see something in the world and they can see the world a different way, and that's okay. And we can learn to come together and figure it out together.
00:48:12:02 - 00:48:31:21
So, you know, purpose-driven. Or if you want to give me that title, sure. That's good. It's going to take me a while to accept that. But it's understanding the lessons which I've had from you and from business over the years. And now applying it in new and different ways. I now have a framework to do that.
00:48:31:23 - 00:48:49:02
Yeah, it's beautiful. I agree, I think the Brian even ten years ago wouldn't have been ready for this type of business. But now you are. And before we wrap up this section, I just want to make sure, one thing I really admire about you is that you
00:48:49:02 - 00:48:55:17
have made some choices to go be a volunteer in some really dangerous area.
00:48:55:17 - 00:49:22:21
So tell us about, in addition to doing this business, which is great, how are you? How have you chosen to use your free time to make a difference in the world? And these last couple trips that you've done tell us a little bit about that. Sure. So I can say because of business, I happened to be in Europe at a conference, and this is in February 2022, when the full-scale invasion from Russia happened in Ukraine.
00:49:22:21 - 00:49:40:07
And I'm like, as someone who studied history and, still studies history and especially World War Two and Cold War history, it's like, wait, there's a war in Europe right now, and it goes back to my Enneagram type. It's like, that is just wrong. There is no right or wrong in this. This is just wrong, in my opinion.
00:49:40:12 - 00:50:03:24
And I felt like I had to do something, so what you're referring to is seven years I've now been in Ukraine twice over the last two years. So I've gone into a war zone, something that I like. It's not natural for me to go into a war. It's not natural, I think, for anyone, but it's having that sense of purpose that there's something out there which is really not settling well with me.
00:50:03:24 - 00:50:22:02
Like I can feel it here, I can feel it in my heart. I can feel it in my body. This is just wrong. And maybe because you'll have to talk about this a little bit, maybe it's because of the training, maybe it's because of who I am in general. But I have to do something because all of that fell off.
00:50:22:02 - 00:50:55:10
Or maybe I didn't think of it in that way. In the moment. It's just, I need to do something. But everything felt really bad, and I don't want to sit like that. So yeah, I went to Ukraine and I've been there twice now, and I stopped and spent time with they're, called internally displaced people like people on the East who have been basically invaded and taken over right now, who are living in the West because they don't have homes anymore. I worked with soldiers, lots of wounded soldiers, which is really hard to see a lot of times, and worked with kids, oftentimes orphans.
00:50:55:10 - 00:51:17:04
Oftentimes times his parents are fighting on the front line. And it can be this really terrible emotional, like, I can be a wreck and I can cry every day. But that feeling, my head or my heart or my gut is no longer there. Like, I've actually listened to that and gone. And even though, yeah, it's somewhat dangerous.
00:51:17:09 - 00:51:36:00
Not as dangerous as you might think, but it's somewhat dangerous. I've taken a risk. It feels better. I feel better as a person. Having done that. It's not for everyone. And the world needs people who will give money. The world needs people who will go and actually be like the boots on the ground. Both work for me.
00:51:36:00 - 00:51:55:17
I need to go there and understand what's really happening, and I think I've come out a better person. I feel better about myself, and I can share this. Like part of my journey is saying, hey, we need to focus on this area of nonprofit work because it's necessary. It's needed out there in the world.
00:51:55:17 - 00:51:56:25
It's beautiful
00:51:56:25 - 00:51:57:10
and
00:51:57:10 - 00:52:03:02
as you are going on these trips and as a friend, I was, you know, worried about your safety.
00:52:03:02 - 00:52:10:07
And it's remarkable to me that you've made this choice. And, this will transition us into our last question.
00:52:10:07 - 00:52:16:28
I want to ask every guest. What does being a courageous leader mean to you?
00:52:16:28 - 00:52:21:16
And this example of you volunteering?
00:52:21:16 - 00:52:22:22
In a war zone,
00:52:22:22 - 00:52:28:09
to me, is the definition of courageous leadership. But I want to hear that in your own words.
00:52:28:12 - 00:52:30:12
So thank you for saying that.
00:52:30:12 - 00:52:47:13
This is one question which I have been thinking about since we started talking about potentially doing this podcast. And it's a question which I don't have an answer for yet. I'm still developing, I think, like, I'm very fortunate and I know that I'm a six-foot-tall white guy with the last name Smith.
00:52:47:13 - 00:53:06:03
Like I hit the lottery. I live in the United States. I went to grad school. I studied, really all that stuff. But I think being courageous. So like, I have a have a leg up. And what I've realized is a lot of people don't, and I don't necessarily think that's fair. And that might not resonate with everyone, but
00:53:06:03 - 00:53:09:15
I feel like I have a duty to give back.
00:53:09:18 - 00:53:28:16
And it's not as if I've always been. I'm not the most successful person in my career. It's not like, oh, you've heard about me. You've read about me on TechCrunch, starting this company, and it's $1 billion thing and Google or whatever. And I've been, I think I've been, successful in my own, in my own way. And that's great.
00:53:28:16 - 00:53:50:21
I think that being courageous leader to me really means getting the work done, for sure. That has to happen. But as we were talking about before, it doesn't end there. There's also the end. So it's really, it's making sure that you're more complete. If all you do is work for work, you're going to get sick of that.
00:53:50:21 - 00:54:11:22
You're going to get burned out. I think you have to bring in that whole body that you're talking about. Stephanie. So, being courageous later, if I had to sum it up because you're forcing me to here, and I kind of like it because you're going to get different answers from different people. It's getting the work done and doing extremely well.
00:54:11:24 - 00:54:31:23
And making sure that it sits well with you. Also, anyone can get the work done, not anyone. But you know, you should be able to get the work done. You should be at a company that's doing well and contributing to that, but it should also feel good to you. And, you know, sometimes it hasn't felt so good to me being in a couple of organizations.
00:54:31:23 - 00:54:57:20
And I am unique. I stand up and say I'm going somewhere else. A lot of people stay there until something else happens to them. So for me, being courageous leaders, taking a little risk and making sure that I'm really listening to myself and helping myself out, advocating for myself, and stepping into a new situation which might not be so comfortable.
00:54:57:20 - 00:55:08:19
But I know deep down it's the right thing for me versus just thinking, hey, the company is doing well, I'm successful, my team is good. There's more to it than that. Yeah.
00:55:08:19 - 00:55:17:05
and I hear the high side of Enneagram one and that I hear that idealism that I can make a difference. And I feel like that's not okay.
00:55:17:05 - 00:55:19:02
I'm going to go make it different.
00:55:19:02 - 00:55:20:03
And that fuel
00:55:20:03 - 00:55:21:03
to do that,
00:55:21:03 - 00:55:24:28
it really looks like courage over here as I sit back and watch it.
00:55:24:28 - 00:55:30:08
So anything else you want to add to feel complete for our conversation?
00:55:30:08 - 00:55:32:22
No, I think we covered a lot.
00:55:32:22 - 00:55:36:22
I like to think that everyone has a superpower or multiple superpowers.
00:55:36:29 - 00:55:59:11
My superpower. I don't need sleep like other people do. I sleep like crazy. Other people have different superpowers. So, Stephanie, maybe this will sound like a plug and you can delete this or whatever, but like one of your superpowers is that you have all these different frameworks to work with, and everyone's different. Some stories, some people might resonate with what I said today.
00:55:59:13 - 00:56:20:11
Some people might be like, what is this guy talking about? The next person might resonate with them or not. The next person might. It might take a couple people because everyone's different. The great thing about that, that I found in working with you is you've been able to meet me or meet other people, sorry, not and/or and meet other people in ways that work for them.
00:56:20:11 - 00:57:03:03
So we have this funny conversation back and forth. I at least think it's funny. We'll see what you said. But you bring up topics like how we will very woowoo and I like I kind of just want to shut you out for the next hour of you talking about woowoo stuff because, no, I'm a business guy and I need to think this way, but I'm not like everyone, so it's really cool that it whether it's Enneagram, whether it's conscious leadership, whether it's sounds, whether it's meditation, whether it's yoga and body movement, there's something that you or you've realized that everyone is different and to really meet people where they are and help them, you need
00:57:03:09 - 00:57:25:11
to draw from lots of different practices. I'd say that's a cool thing, because just looking at a team, I have designers, I have developers, I have analysts, I have marketers, I have salespeople, they're all going to be different people and react differently to how they're taught or are they sorry, let me change that. They learn differently.
00:57:25:13 - 00:57:51:03
So what my final thought here is really, you know, everyone's different. And you have these tools which help you meet people where they are, no matter who they are, and give them different frameworks or provide them with a framework that works best for them. That's kind of cool. I think that's your superpower. Thank you for saying that. Yeah, it is true.
00:57:51:04 - 00:58:17:10
And I've tried a lot of different things. Like most of the tools I have learned, I've sort them out because something in me was hurting. I had a pain that I was working through. I had another layer that I was healing, and I was looking for relief. And, whether, you know, I had a hip pain and I started doing sound healing with tuning forks with Eileen McKusick was amazing.
00:58:17:10 - 00:58:36:03
And you even, because we talked about this Woowoo stuff so much, even though you thought I was crazy, you joined me for a weekend where we went and did Sing The Body Electric. You were curious and willing to try it out. That's what I appreciate about you is you're curiosity.
00:58:36:03 - 00:58:41:04
Because we do have those conversations back and forth where you really challenge me, and you're like
00:58:41:04 - 00:58:47:11
I get this, tell me more. And it helps me articulate things. It helps me to be able to,
00:58:47:11 - 00:58:48:22
boil it down
00:58:48:22 - 00:59:06:10
and explain that. So I always appreciate your people where they are. Like, that's I think the incredible thing, it's like I will react to, like any sound work, you call on your tuning fork, I don't need one right now.
00:59:06:13 - 00:59:14:17
Maybe I'll get to a place where I need one. But, you know, whatever. Someone else might really need the tuning fork and not need the Enneagram. And that's great.
00:59:14:17 - 00:59:15:26
Yeah, absolutely.
00:59:15:26 - 00:59:36:15
Because it is a timing thing. Sometimes it's like peeling back the layers of the onion. What pieces? Ready to heal. You know, new level, new devil is another phrase of like, you know, you think, oh, I've learned this lesson before, but it's like going back around and there's just another bite of the apple to heal and to grow from.
00:59:36:15 - 00:59:37:06
So
00:59:37:06 - 00:59:58:12
Brian, I want to thank you for your time today. I love having conversations with you. I love our long relationship over all these decades. I just value who you are as a person and what you bring to the world in terms of impact. So thank you so much for being here. Thanks, Stephanie. This is a lot of fun.
00:59:58:15 - 01:00:01:26
Okay. I'll see you again soon. Okay. Take care. Thanks.
01:00:02:19 - 01:00:23:15
So that was the episode with Brian. Thanks so much for listening. I hope you found something valuable and inspirational in this episode. And, stay tuned for more. Would love to hear your comments. Please like and share this episode with others that you think may benefit from it. See you next time!
